Changing Direction.

I spent some time yesterday looking at graphs from social networks and their usage statistics.  I was struck by how many times bigger they are,  and how they just keep growing.    Myspace and i’m sure facebook users send as many messages per day as plentyoffish users send in several months.   When I look at other sites in the free category I don’t really see any.  Sure there is Okcupid making noise and,  promoting an Ipod for the 10 millionth email sent and there is a publicly traded Free dating site.     Plentyoffish users send more than 10 million emails a week and we get 8-10 times more visitors then all free dating sites combined.  When looking at usage data/ member logins from  compete, comscore and others plentyoffish accounts for 90 to 95% of the free dating category in the english speaking world.

So here we are today like match.com and eharmony we are the leader of our category and we have little to no competetion.    The only problem is there is no more double digit growth and signups pretty much flattened out in US and Canada in the last 6 months.     We should be seeing 20% growth a month plus but we aren’t so where is all the growth going?   All my polls and others research show that social networks are sucking users out of the dating industry by the millions.  

So what to do?  Social Networks are nothing more than glorified dating sites that tried a different interface and it worked and to make matters worse they make 5+ times as much money per user.  Sure people say social network users aren’t all single users,  but those same people choose to ignore the microsoft/sympatico study that showed 30% of yahoo personals users were married/not single.  The average age of social network users has climbed from teens to thirties and the dating industry definitely saw the impact last year as traffic declined 20%

A few years ago  I created a new format that took a niche and created a category and took plentyoffish to a billion pageviews/month site.   But there is no way that this format will take plentyoffish to 10 billion a month or even 2 billion.  I’ve tried making many minor and semi big changes to site the last few months  but nothing has had a real effect.  By real effect I mean adding millions of new users.  So once again time to change the format and move this category forward or create an entirely new category.

63 Responses to “Changing Direction.”

  1. Zoltan Says:

    This is the first time on this blog when I see that you are not satisfied. Is the situation really that bad?
    What do you mean by “time to change the format and move this category forward or create an entirely new category.”?

  2. Mike Says:

    Why someone would prefer “Plenty Of Fish – Social Networking Site” over the already established MySpace, FaceBook and hundreds of others? If POF started turning towards social networking in my opinion you would lose a lot of the “daters” to other sites, not to mention brand dilution. (ever read “Positioning” by Al Ries and Jack Trout?)

    Sure, you might gain people looking for a social network site, and maybe even make more money overall, but social network sites are already free, so you immediately lose that hook. Why would someone choose you over the competition? What do you have to offer them? Especially starting this late in the game.

    In my opinion, someone should come up with new ideas that actually IMPROVE the dating experience. Look at your stats Markus, how many people leave POF and answer something other then “Found someone on here” on your exit survey? How many just forget about their account and let is sit inactive instead? Why not figure out how to keep those users, or at least make them leave happy rather then frustrated and with 3 stalkers calling/emailing them 8x a day.

    If you can figure out how to remove the stigma of “if I join an online dating site, I’m gonna have to deal with all the creeps” that pretty much the majority of women STILL (legitimately) have, I think you would do pretty well growth wise.

    Figure out how to keep women from spending 1min deleting the hundreds of “hey sexy” emails in their inbox and instead spend 15-30mins replying to a fraction of the decent ones, and your revenue/user should improve too.

    Even better yet, figure out how to help guys improve their “hit ratio” and I bet you would start to seriously hurt the other dating sites.

    In my opinion there is still tons of room to grow online dating as whole. It just takes some new ideas, which there seems to be a huge lack of right now.

  3. Bill Snow - BuyMyAffection.com Says:

    It says right at the top of the page “The Paradigm Shift: Adapt or die.”

    I’m not surprised, but I’m DYING to find out what card you have up your sleeve.

  4. Nicholas Says:

    Hello Markus: I really enjoy your posts. It provides small timers like me (wanting to be a big timer) ideas and the continued hope of attaining social and financial success on the internet.

    Clearly, it appears that in most cases on the internet, many sites must keep reinventing themselves to survive and succeed. I am a good example and the numbers are much smaller. I was looking for a niche and have a real passion for Spanish. I also am a big fan of word of the day lists in English and find them addicting and educational. So, I came up with the idea of SpanishWordoftheday.com and thought it would be a hit since the numbers of people studying is tremendous all over the world. I believed since there were very few few players that virally through word of mouth it would grow tremendously. I also thought it would be an excellent mode to grow traffic to my site on Latin America.

    I have tried to make it different than the other lists in developing it to attract all levels of Spanish students or speakers of the language. Most lists provide one word which in most cases is a basic word and eliminates many possible members to the list. Therefore, I provided beginning, intermediate, and advanced vocabulary. Also, I provide idioms, proverbs, ynonyms , Spanish tips, and Spanish Slang. Sound files are also provided for practice and link back to my site on Latin America.

    You would think every student of Spanish in the world would sign up. I strugle to get between 10-20 people daily to sign up. I am in the thousands of subscribers but, no where near I thought I would be by offering a free service which there is truly a need. I love the letters I get from subscribers stating they really enjoy each day receiving my email.

    I continue to tweek and try new things thinking that something new may bring more subscribers. However, it seems that there are thousands of webmasters like me that provide an excellent service but, have yet found the “Holy Grail”.

    Thanks for your openeness in sharing your thoughts with the world of web development.

    Nicholas

  5. Jonathan Frate Says:

    Maybe you should have taken that 100 million $ buy-out offer😉

  6. Normalkid: Arnold Kim » » What You Have is Never Enough? Says:

    […] just yesterday, Marcus Frind who runs PlentyofFish, a free online dating site, posted about what he saw as the growing trend of social networking taking over dating sites. But there is […]

  7. Alessandro Says:

    What about “viral marketing”? How come it is not working anymore?

  8. Martin Says:

    “What you have is never enough” – I think that has a lot of truth in it. I know where you are coming from Markus, and I think we are all sat scratching our heads every day on wondering where is the growth, where is the growth?. – I think to look at your Alexa chat over the last 5 years would help to offer some comfort.

    I also think that fashion and trend plays a big part here – my other main school of thought is that you dont have to be on a dating site to date, no more than you have to be on a social site to date, – simply throw a lot of people together in one place and their built-in primative instinct is to mate.

    Markus, you have a site making near on $10,000 a day, and with one apartment and a girlfriend, I wouldn’t be reaching for the whisky bottle just yet.

    I do enjoy your posts, I wonder how many readers make changes to their own sites / business models on the basis of what you say each day? I can almost here the “Damn it, he’s changing to social networking now! – quick load up Dreamweaver”!

    I thnk with any valuable asset, it’s knowing when you are at the crest of a wave and when to jump ship, and to be honest, if you were to sell at $50 million or $100 million, it’s all rather academic when talking those sorts of astronomical figures.

    If you wanted my honest opnion, I think you could wake up you database and the whole industry with a refresh of the design and a few ‘novelty’ features added.

    The neighbours have always got a bigger lawn and nicer house, but you can be damn sure they have a big mortgage😉

  9. Ian Says:

    Markus, I’ll echo some of Mike’s comments. Quality matters over quantity.

    I have been actively dating for the last 6 weeks. All last year I spent all my free hours building my second company (whilst working in the first by day to pay the mortgage) – I didn’t have time to go dating so I let my social life quieten down (a sensible trade-off for an aspiring entrepreneur).

    This year I have a little more time so I chose to internet-date. I checked PoF and, sadly, wasn’t impressed. I have opted to pay-to-date and have had a much better experience.

    I chose to date via Guardian Soulmates and having paid £20 for a month’s membership I found myself asked-out by 6 attractive, educated, nice and interesting women. I also asked a few people out and naturally we all spoke about our experiences in the site.
    The two main problems from the women about Soulmates were:
    1. ratio of quality men to no-hopers (but at least there *were* some good men)
    2. rubbish emails which had to be deleted (and this in a *paying* site)

    My experience was in being contacted only by a small group of good women who all wanted to chat about interesting things and, after 1 email, going on nice dates. I didn’t receive any rubbish emails and I didn’t have to block anyone, I feel I’ve used my (limited!) time very well with Soulmates.

    If anything I’d suggest you think on how to get people to pay to use your service (upgrades?) and offer them a higher-quality experience in return, on top of the free dating. Personally I don’t expect to meet my life-partner by saving some cash in a free dating site – I’m quite happy to pay for the chance of several nice introductions to suitable people.

    Some ideas:
    Maybe you can help women to weed out rubbish emails – perhaps tell women how many times a man has sent carbon-copies of the same email/poem (suggesting that he’s playing a pure numbers-game)?
    Let women see how many other women have responded to a man’s opening email (similar to watching a crappy-man trawl women in a bar – you don’t get this sort of feedback in any site right now)?
    Let men buy an upgrade just so they show they have some money-in-the-game to potential partners?
    For men and women (optionally?) publish how many new people they contact each week – it indicates if they’re playing a pure numbers game or if they’re being selective

    On the flip side – I do respect what you’re doing for the internet-entrepreneurial scene and you’ve done a grand job growing your site, so you clearly deserve kudos. If I had to boil it all down to one phrase I’d say go for ‘quality over quantity’. Don’t go all ‘social networking’ just because it is the current fad!

  10. Ian Says:

    Nicholas – a quick bit of feedback. I checked out your site. You do seem to offer a nice service, but here’s my problem – nowhere did you say I wouldn’t be receiving a ton of spam after I gave you my email address (this is a *big* problem!).
    You do say in your Terms that you won’t reveal my email to 3rd parties – but that doesn’t mean that you aren’t sending your subscribers a ton of viagra-ads every day (I’m sure you aren’t…but how can a potential sign-up know for sure?).
    The fix is simple – if you aren’t mailing your users spam (and I’m sure you’re not) just *state* this fact! I see that you have an archive (note – it only has 1 valid link and it is very old) – if this is the only thing you send out then gosh – this looks useful – so make it clear.
    If you *do* send out adverts in separate mails then also you need to make this clear (else unsuspecting users will classify it as Spam and, over time, you’ll be blocked by ISPs).
    Fear of being spammed-even-more will hold back people from joining you. As I said above in my comment to Markus – Quality *Matters*.

  11. Eric D Says:

    Markus,

    I hope you are kidding when you say a Social Network site is a glorified dating site – which I am sure you were being a bit tongue and cheek. They are a different beast for a different purpose – your model relies on anonymity and theirs is the exact opposite – the connections made are initially based primarily on known acquaintances. But what seems to be a double whammy is that with Social Networks is if you want you can be anonymous and reach out and make a new connection. On a Social Network site a single person can find new connections and at the same time they can stay in contact with all their friends – single and taken.

    The bigger issue here is that you should be listening to your inner voice that is not satisfied – you need to tear down the walls that POF success has created. Don’t tear down POF because POF is not the problem. Perhaps you could have someone run POF for you for a while and you spend some time going back to your roots and figuring out what you could do to add real value to a community of users. The world does not need another Facebook/MySpace/Bebo – but they do need a new {Blank} – find out what {Blank} is and you will find fulfillment. When you search for {Blank} set a budget of 10K for the project – if you can do it with 10K then it is worthwhile – if you need 500K – step away. Money complicates everything when it comes to original ideas.

    My two cents.

    Cheers,

    Eric

  12. Mike Says:

    Ian, you have some interesting ideas, but I think you are making a HUGE mistake relating “paid” dating sites to quality. As well as saying that a man paying for a dating site means he has “money-in-the-game”. If you think about it, the idiots, jerks, and players have no problem spending $20/month to get laid when a hooker costs $100/hr. A guy with a hooker has “money-in-the-game”, does that make it better?

    Whatever you do, I think it has to be “even”. If you start adding features that just “help” the women, the guys will get discouraged, and if you add features that just “help” the guys the women will get discouraged. If any one sex gets discouraged it will automatically cause a negative impact on the entire site.

    I’ve been online dating for over 5 years now and have probably spoke to over 400 women and gone on countless dates, and every single women I’ve talked to I have asked about their experiences. Without fail they have all had a negative experience at some point. From players, to married guys saying they are single, to stalkers. In fact I’ve even had my share of female stalkers from online dating.

    There is so much room for improvement in the online dating world its sad that it hasn’t happened yet.

  13. Martin Says:

    In my opinion Markus, everything is relevant, it’s all one long food chain in a sense. People aspire to be like you making $10k a day from your site, and you’re wondering how to make more, i’m making 10k a month from my site and wondering how to make more, while my friend Andy stuck in his 9 to 5 job dreams of the 10k a month I make, and so on and so on.

    Seeing social networks grow at a crazy rate is kinda frustrating, but look at their staffing / IT bills and mayve the $$$VC borrowing etc – which undoubtly many of the big players have.

    Lets step back and look at the wider issue from your personal point of view. You have huge incomes coming in every day, as well as massive end-sale value.

    You’ll never have to work again, can travel the world, and live for life itself, doesn’t this mean more than a bit of a dip or levelling out on an Alexa bar chart?

    Sorry if my opinion isn’t commercially exciting! A lot of people follow what you do and say Markus, and I’m sure you’ve given inspiration to thousands, if you wan’t my honest opinion, don’t do anything, except keep rolling on and giving the big middle finger to the stuffy establishments😉

  14. PlentyOfFish Changing Direction » Online Dating Insider Says:

    […] If you’re new here, you may want to subscribe to my RSS feed or get ODI via email. Your comments and suggestions for stories welcomed. Thanks for visiting! Hot on the heels of my comment that the bright spotlight focusing on PlentyOfFish won’t last forever, come word from Markus Frind that PlentyOfFish is changing direction. […]

  15. Zak Kinion Says:

    With dating sites, theres the free ones such as okcupid and yours. The others, such as match.com/true, adult friend finder, etc.. are mostly scams (look up adult friend finder on ripoffreport), who’s customer service department sends people who join as a trial fake messages to get them to join up a paid account. Alot of other variations of the scam exists, such as fake geotargeting ads, that all end up in a user joining a site with much real prospect of finding someone. There is alot of money to be made off of lonely people in our ever-isolated society (mostly males).

    These paid sites can monetize their traffic much faster/greater than the free sites, and thus can dump a good deal of funds into advertising, ironically, on the social networking sites that are taking traffic away from free dating sites.

  16. Anthony Says:

    Social networking – it is for kids I think. All of this AJAX, Web2.0 and other super, pupper, blah-blah…
    On other side – many people are kids even being 30 years old:)

  17. » PlentyofFish and Markus Frind to venture into social networking? - Web Publishing Blog Says:

    […] Markus hinted that it may time for him to move beyond the dating site model and venture into, or beyond, social networking. Why? Because dating sites are […]

  18. Lovin.mobi » PlentyOfFish Changing Direction Says:

    […] Hot on the heels of my comment that the bright spotlight focusing on PlentyOfFish won’t last forever, come word from Markus Frind that PlentyOfFish is changing direction. […]

  19. Carlos Says:

    Your greatest asset is your user base. Want more users, get a great mobile app that can access your site and work on most phones. People will use it and show it to friends, great viral marketing there with the right features. Also having such a large user base, it amazes me that you are not going mobile and letting other people with no user base do this and steal future business out of your plate.

    Check this out, with a mobile version, you could have bluetooth search people in range and alert the user, for example. Growth is in mobile data usage and given your user base if you had a great mobile version wireless carriers would be very much interested in it. I beleive MySpace has a mobile version that some cellphone companies and wireless carries distribute though.

    Carlos.

  20. The Plan of Action. « The Paradigm Shift Says:

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  21. Ezra Burgoyne Says:

    The grass is always greener on the other side, my friend. =)
    Btw, Hotornot is making a similar move. They just hired 4 developers and have been releasing some new features over the last two months. Pretty interesting for a site that hasn’t been touched for 4+ years. Jim and James tried their hand at a SNS a while back called Yafro. It failed, but I imagine they might be able to do something with Hotornot directly.

    I’ve started a couple small social networks now (my total usership is under 30k) and I can tell you having a couple hundred thousand people willing to click on ads about dating is something I’m very jealous of. I’m not quite sure where this notion that social networks are able to monetize heavily on users comes from. If you’re absolutely massive, perhaps that’s true. Otherwise, I can tell you from first hand experience AdSense is one of the worst ways to monetize a general SNS. If my users were willing to click on ads about dating, I could make an ok living and work on bigger ideas or expansion. Unfortunately, they won’t even click on ads for hot MySpace layouts. I’ve been having trouble getting into CPM networks because none of my sites pull enough traffic individually. I’m sure you know what you’re doing, but for me part of POF’s appeal is that it’s a no-nonsense dating site that’s free and works. Same deal with HotOrNot. In the times of the SNS, it’s kinda nice to not beat around the bush by spending an hour dressing up your page and sending out 91230 fake friend requests before people will take you seriously.

  22. Nicholas Says:

    Ian: Thanks for the input. I will make the changes you mentioned. I left the archive up for those who wanted to see a sample. Eventually, I will archive all the words of the day. My anticipation after starting the email list is that it should have grown to around 50,000 members in a matter of months because of the demand to learn Spanish. However, I am still in the mid thousands. I receive good feedback from readers who many have mentioned they love receiving the email daily. And, you are right, I donnot spam. I have not even taken any advertisers yet of which I feel there will be a time for this. Thank you again for your input.

    Nicholas

  23. Shimrit Elisar’s Online Dating Blog » Social networking Vs dating sites Says:

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  24. V7N Search Marketing News » Blog Archive » Daily Search Blog Roundup, March 21, 2007 Says:

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  25. ernst Says:

    social networking??? common, stick with what works for you.

    Social networking requires a little more sensitivity to the experience of your users.

    a little less need to say, “oh look, i did all by myself, how great is that?”

  26. roel Says:

    Mike wrote:There is so much room for improvement in the online dating world its sad that it hasn’t happened yet.

    Where are you thinking of?

  27. Mike S. Says:

    There are a lot of good comments in here. I agree with Markus that free online dating is just begining. As owner of ezdate123 we have taken note of the sites that are free and changed ezdate123 from a pay site to a totally free online dating site. Our traffic has more than tripled instantly, We are growing each month and have had our two biggest traffic months this past April and May of 2007. Free is the way to go. One of our biggest complaints was working with Paypal and the refund policy. It is just horrible. PayPal was a factor in ezdate123 going to a free dating site. We would like to see the refund policy change at PayPal… But until then we are staying free. Our members enjoy our site and word of mouth along with Google ads have made a difference…. We are excited about the future here at ezdate123. Each month is a wonderful event. I hope to hear from the viewers in this site as well. We listen to our members and do our best to add the features they like most…Free online dating along with ezdate123 and others are here to stay….. Thanks MIke

  28. Rocket Spanish Fan Says:

    So what’s the answer? Is there anything you can think of that would make dating sites more popular.

    Are social networking sites really that popular for dating? I thought they were just for mucking around?

  29. Nigel Says:

    No, some social networks can be useful for the older generation such as Terrys Business
    Network
    which is focused on building business connections.

    Nigel

  30. Ray Says:

    Social network sites are flourishing as both dating and “myspace” types. The sheer number of myspace resource sites that has become a cottage industry is testamant to that.

  31. Alex Says:

    I am from russian dating business and I enjoyed reading your thoughts. I am sure you can’t combine a dating site and social networks. You will loose more than you get. I agree with the idea of give POF to somebody else and start a new project according to your ambitions. I could take it🙂

  32. Opinion Says:

    Hi, Good article!

    But I think social networks have other specialization.😉

  33. keith Says:

    You make an interesting point. We have been running a dating site, FlirtingInTraffic.com and although the press coverage has been incredible, the traffic takes continual dips and dives. We have tried incorporating more social networking components to provide more interactive features, but ultimately we are losing most of our members to my space or other similar sites. Although we are dating first, and unique dating at that, I’ve found that not having enough of the more social networking components has ultimately been a deterrent….so I see your dilemna and feel your pain.

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  35. Will Says:

    Markus, there’s a lot of truth in what you say, still, too many social networking sites are like digital Wal-marts in that they try to monopolize everything for everyone, e.g. news, politics, sports, shopping, entertainment, bulletin boards, photo/video sharing, advertising, etc.. Sometimes that strategy works well though I think it can fracture one’s attention span.

    Social networking sites also treat the market like the customer – which is why they will ultimately alienate their users. Instead, they should treat the customer like the market, or God forbid, the customer like the customer.

    Niche sites, particularly dating sites, should focus on one thing only—their core competency.

    This clip is a bit dated, but it reflects that opinion:

    toodles

  36. mitesh Says:

    social networking is quite common these days, its very much important u stick with what works well for you. with social networking – u will be required to incorporate more and more social networking components into ur website to provide more interactive features – in order to keep ur members interested

  37. kpli Says:

    very nice post here..i’ve bookmarked this blog for future reference..

    Hey i hope it’s not too late to wish you a Happy New Year

    Enjoy reading this blog …;)

    thanks

  38. Steven Eng Says:

    hey Mark,
    Why not start taking money directly from the customer? The issue isn’t monetizing your customer, since google and your advertisers are taking advantage of your enormous traffic to do just that. The issue is being fair, providing value and a great user-experience. I love your what-you-see-is-what-you-get approach. You can extend that to paid features, like providing graphical gifts customers can buy to send to people, or upgraded functionality we don’t necessarily expect to be free, like membership to off-line events, etc. So long as you aren’t too greedy and you’re providing good value in a straight-forward manner, I doubt you’d lose hardly any customers at all, can earn more, and still sleep well at night. Cheers!

  39. Free dating partner Says:

    I read the similar article somewhere but every time I read, I am impressed about Mr. Markus. He is so smart.
    Thanks for sharing.

  40. Asian woman Says:

    Mr. Markus, he is great and famous to public. We are Asian people know all about him and he is the best sample I personally admire and follow. Plentyofifsh help many singles locally and around the world to connect with each other on the Net.
    Thanks very much for creating such a beautiful dating service.

  41. Dave Says:

    I only use MySpace for dating. Sorry, I’m one of those.

  42. Free dating webmaster Says:

    There is no need to change whole direction. Just improve the current one. Add some features that keep your audience

  43. Adam Says:

    The way I see it, MySpace was meant for connecting people together. Why change anything about that?

  44. Linkvana Says:

    Myspace is a haven for teen porn now. That’s all kids use it for these days. Yeah, I’m a cynic.

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  46. Pink Cook Says:

    Yeah right, I agree with your opinion Mr. Markus. Many of Social Networking sites today are just earning much of their profit than the other sites. I tried to make my own move when I thought if I can insert my own ad revenue to my social networking site account but it seems that its useless because I can’t really make it because the ads are just for their site. So I prefer to do on my own. Maybe, for my own opinion social networking purpose is just to use it for having many friends and be popular. It can also used to promote your site for some other way, like Twitter.

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  54. Torb Says:

    PlentyofFish is a genuine, if a bit knocked around and defensive, site full of real people. It doesn’t have that feeling of being packed with model photos and false profiles like a lot of sites. However, it also doesn’t have the depth of profiles that commercial site such as OKCupid have. It’s a good way to meet people, but it might take sorting through a lot of fish to find your soul mate.

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  56. Peter Says:

    “Social Networks are nothing more than glorified dating sites…” – lets face it, life is all about sex.

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  60. PlentyOfFish Changing Direction | Free Dating PortalFree Dating Portal Says:

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  62. FilipinoDating.com Says:

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